I was thinking about dating and teenage relationships (yes, I know, I think about the subjects often), and it occurred to me that marriage, in a sense, it about ownership. This is purely a selfish reason, of course, but think of it! Man wants woman. Woman wants man. They get married. Each are each others. Theres comfort in that fact, the fact that when you are married, your spouse is yours and only yours (hopefully). I'm only speculating, I really have no idea what marriage is really like, only guesses.
But we teenagers, we do not have the authority to give ourselves. We can't make the commitment. That is not to say, that we teenagers out to live lives of sexual havoc because we cannot commit ourselves to one person. Quite the contrary! We cannot commit ourselves to anyone in the sense that marriage is a commitment. We are under the guardianship of those who are in authority over us, and till our time has come, we are not the ones to make the decisions concerning who we give ourselves to and how.
This all seems rather stupid and simple when printed on the screen, but I think it's a fact that we teenagers overlook. We're wrapped up in our desire to be individuals and we are being told by the culture that our desire is reality. But it isn't! The truth of the matter is, we are students. Despite constant, burning feelings and desires, we are not at liberty to do anything outside of what our teachers see fit for us to do. We've grown so proud that we've clean forgot our God-ordained place in life! We haven't graduated, and many still haven't even after leaving high school, I'm sure. We need to quit being individuals, and start being students.
About Me
- Joseph Salvatore
- I live in the mountains of Northern California. I mean... its nice up here except for the undisguisable fact that very few have ever heard about this area. If you look on a map... I'm in between Chico, CA and Reno, NV. Close to Lake Almanor if you've ever heard of that. It's simply a lake who supplies the surrounding towns with tourists, and thus business. Anyways, I go to a small parochial school, and I live in a town with 2000 people. How these two collided in my life... no one's quite sure.
27 comments:
First off, I take it that you were inspired to write this because of Mandy's and my relationship. I agree that marriage has a selfish part to it, but a small part. When a man and a woman are married, they are willing to do anything for the other, including giving their life for the other and this is an unselfish act. Teenagers can make the commitment that one does in marriage. It all depends on the teenagers. Some are more responsible and adultlike, but others are immature and act like children. Dating is in a sense a good thing. People flirt with other people, everyone does it. But when two people are dating they are only giving their hearts to one person. But when someone flirts with a another, they are giving a piece of their heart to the other. they do something to impress or make the other person feel like he or she likes them so they would like them back. But when one does something wrong it hurts them and makes them feel like they have been used. So giving ones whole heart is better than giving small pieces of it to many different people. So i believe that dating is not a bad thing and that they can make a commitment just like any other couple can when they're older.
Andrew.... I really don't think he was 'inspired' to write because of you. The last post was also on the same subject - nine months ago. Finally I am quite willing to vouch for Joe that he does indeed ponder these things frequently without any prompting from you or anyone else. So chill.
Perhaps the issue here is not whether or not two teenagers can make the commitment, but rather whether it is appropriate or not. It may be possible and inappropriate, or it may be possible but unwise; there are other options than 'it is possible, therefore it is good.' And just because everyone flirts it doesn't mean it's right. I believe that's some logical fallacy... something about appealing to the people.
Oh an I agree that to give one's whole heart is much more desirable than little pieces to many people. However I would differ about the time and place for this giving all (a person is a composite being, to give one's whole heart before one can give one's body is fraud - promising more than one can give. Perhaps the whole heart should not be given until the vows at the alter.) On the other hand, you have made a false dichotomy: either the whole now or parts now. Where's the self control? You don't have to go around indescrimantly (sp?) falling in love. One's emotions are one's own responsibility, it just doesn't happen - one lets it. I can speak from personal experience that it is possible, very much so, to control one's feelings for someone else.
---------------
Joe - back to your post, here's another thought. Paul says that we ought to be content in the condition which God has willed us. I think today that we tend to see marriage as being ordained and sanctioned by God, but not singleness. We tend to think of singleness as being incomplete, rather than a season which God has ordained for it's own purpose: whole and complete by itself until God unfolds the next season. Dating has warped our image of singleness and takes away the contentment that Paul, in todays Bible reading, commands us to have.
I don't know if I'm right, but give me some thoughts. I agree with you Joe that it's a very important subject because so many people waste their time, emotion, and energy pursuing something that is not going to fulfill them. I dunno... dating does not seem fun at all to me and I am completely content how I am, so I guess I am prejudiced. It just seems so silly to me and irrational.... I do not mean any offense to anyone reading this who does date. Don't be offended or I will have to beat you over the head. :D We can all disagree like grown up people. But I still think you're silly. :D
Maybe I'm not suposed to be here right now, but... I'll comment.
"Teenagers can make the commitment that one does in marriage."
That seems to me equivalent to "Teenagers can sign the contract that one does for the forty-thousand-dollar sports car."
Yes, they have vocal and manual abilites to enter into vows, but do they have the means to fulfill them?
Some eighteen-year-olds get married, raise godly children, and are very happy. And some eighteen-year-olds can buy sports cars. But it's not very common.
Have you all ever really sat back, and looked down the dimly lit halls of your life and done some equations? The kind of equation that says, for example, "80 years (God willing) to live minus 3 years of baby talk - 16 years of schooling (when your path is laid) = 59 years left"
That's a lot of years.
Another problem. You start giving your heart away when you're 16ish and have 65 years to live with consequences - good or bad.
That's a lot of years.
You only get to be single once. When you begin giving your heart away, you stop embracing your singleness, which is something that St. Paul looked very highly upon!
I agree with Joe. Embrace the beauty of opportunity - the opportunity to be used by God as a single-minded young adult. You can't get that back once you give the commitment of relationship, the commitment of marriage.
And, it's a lot of years from now to 80. If you didn't get married until you were 30, you'd still have the possibility of 50 years together!
That's a lot of years
Applause to Miss DeMartimprey.
But having the richness to buy a sports car is totally different than that of having the richness of love. Most 18 year olds would get that money from the parents. but love is something that does not come from parents, it comes from ones own heart. Yes, i agree that people have their whole lives to live. But dont put off tomorrow what you can do today. But you never know what is going to happen in the future so one must live every day as if it is the last. And personally, i would rather spend my last day in love than single.
"...Love should have the thrill a healthy crime does..." Sorry, Ella Fitzgerald moment.....
If we ought to live every moment as our last then we should ask ourselves what is really important. In the words of Fr. Foos, "in the end all that matters is what you have done for the Kingdom." And anyway that isn't the whole of the picture. The fact is that you probably have your whole life to live and you have to keep that in perspective as well, I should think. Perhaps we should live wisely with tomorrow in mind and with a healthy dash of the knowledge of our own mortality.
What really does matter? And how does one live it?
But, you do not know that you are going to die that day. So you wake up and pray as usual and live your life how you might normally live it, for me I would like to love and be happy during that day as well as worship God, there is plenty of time to do both. And you only have about 80 years of your life to fall in love and have a family, that’s it... But you have an eternity to worship God and that’s plenty of time to do that. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t worship God, of course one should pray every day, but you have only one life to love somebody vs. forever to love God.
Sounds like idolatry to yours truly.
How the heck do you get idolatry out of that? I'm not worshipping love, its something that happens and God created it. I never said that I would put it before God, you can love both humans and God. And maybe when you fall in love someday you will understand what im talking about, but until then you dont know what love is.
Andrew, it appears that you are saying that to love somebody in a span of 50 or plus years is not as long as loving God for forever, so one should focus on the loving now rather than the eternal love in heaven...But your failing to notice that unless one loves God wholeheartedly now one cannot love him forever. Why leave for tomoorw whast you can have today? Because we are not to lay up for ourselves treasures on earth, but in heaven. This 'love' you talk of is an earthly treasure. It withers and passes away, though moths and rust cannot destroy it, it still passes with time and fades with death. It is not the eternal love that one shares with Christ and his Church, though indeed it may be when perfected in marriage.
But as Joe has already stated, it is not the teenagers job to get married, nor is it the teenagers job to pursue marriage. For the parents may give the 18-yr old money to by a car, but it is not their job to support the 18-yr old's wife. That is the 18-yr old's job, and at 18, and especially younger, this is not normally probable.
Teenagers fail, we mess up, we are learning, and every day introduces new problems to solve and lessons to learn. Through these lessons we hurt people, but we should not add to these pains by giving our hearts away only to take them back again. Sure, teenagers try to make relationships work all the time, but due to selfishness and the 'learning process' in general they hurt people and make them feel used, because in reality that is what they are doing.
We as teenagers are only 'sophmores' or 'wise fools.' We know very little and often let our minds and rational be tricked by this little game we call love.
Furthermore, I'm having a hard time believing that you know what love is andrew..but then again, what kind of love are we talking about. For sure, you may know a love that she does not, and she may know a love that you do not, which love is better...?
I think there needs to be a defenition of this love you speak of...eros, philos, agape, or storge? Eros, Friendship, Charity or Affection, respectively. Concerning Eros, C.S. lewis wrote:"love begins to be a demon..." warning against the danger of elevating Eros to the status of a god.
God gave us our hearts, and I plan to use it to the fullest, both to him and the woman I will be spending the rest of my life with. Love is something that is needed on earth. The world would not exist without it, the people would die off. Believe what you might, but I'm sure many of you believe that teenagers cannot love, but I strongly disagree with that. It seems as people get older the love fades away, but the younger are the ones who love more strongly than others. I'm not saying this is true for all, but it seems so for a lot that i have seen. It is only until recently people could get married at 18, in medieval times and long before most people got married at 15. Why has that changed now? And God has given us this earthly treasure, so then why are you saying that we should not love? Yes, teenagers fail and mess up, but adults mess up just as often as we teenagers. Then who is to say that they should get married when some act like they are a teenager? And love is not a game, it is real... as real as you and me and it is something most will come to one day or another. love is a self sacrifice for another, a willingness to give your life for that person, to the one you care about and would be willing to spend your life with that you could take care of when they are sick and raise a family together one day.
So is dating the best way to show this love?
Or rather, is dating cabable of showing this love?
Another thing I just thought of, If we are under the authority of out parents, then it is their decision until we are 18. And about this whole love thing, if we cant love our parents, who God puts us under, how can we love someone else who we put ourselves under. We are to learn the self-sacrificial love in the context of our home, under our parents, not under another person around our age.
Ahh, I forgot, so one cannot date, but what about giving oneself away emotionally. Guys do this too when they open themselves up for everyone to talk to them..you end up building feeling of sympathy or a connection with one and their problems, which isnt always a good connection...it builds a gateway for more emotional connections later on.
'Ello Charis, excellent points. I liked your asking what kind of love we are talking about, that is something we ought to have cleared up from the beginning. As I have had storgay (however you spell that...) explained to me, it is the sort of love which makes one feel good - I love pie, for example, it makes me feel good. It seems to me that this is the sort of love we are talking about in the issue of teenagers 'liking' (what a horrible phrase... I propose that if I am right, from now on we say "I storgay him" hehehehe) each other.
Andy: As I (and Charris) pointed out before, the real issue is not really WHETHER teenagers can or cannot love (in a marriage sort of way I mean), the question is whether or not it is appropriate. Here's another question: What does one gain from dating? Or better yet, what are one's motives? Love? What is love? I suppose I do not see what beneficial thing can be gained from such a show of affection.
Perhaps one's motives for love is to feel good, in which case love become a drug, an anti-depressant emotion. Or perhaps one seeks love as a fullfillment to life's questions, like Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy...In which case the point could be made that love is not the end all be all, but the maker of Love--God. After all, isnt the love one finds in a marriage supposed to point to the marriage of Christ and his Church and the love of Christ sacrificing himself for the Church...it is a love that points to worship.
Does dating help in this search for love? I dont think so. It creates an atmosphere that love has already been attained when in fact it is hardly even found.
Yes, dating is capable of showing love; it shows the willingness to give oneself to the other person. But it is not the parent’s decisions on who we love and who not to love. People cannot just turn off emotions like that if parents say you cannot love a certain person, its impossible. And I love my parents very much, sure we have our arguments and disagreements, but I still love them. Who says that all guys open up just so that people can feel sorry for them? Most of the time I don’t, I usually keep it to myself unless someone asks in which I will tell them, not for sympathy. It is both kinds of love. Love between a man and a woman generally always starts off as a good feeling. But later moves on to affection and that you care more for the other than the self. One gains from dating a sense of responsibly and what it is to care for another and to protect him or her. Ones motives in dating is to have one another to see if possibly one day down the road you two would be able to make it together. If a dating relationship would not work out then that would show that ones marriage might not last. I believe dating is good to do for a few years then when ready move into courtship for ¾ of a year to a year then finally get married. Now, I have a question for all of you… Why are you all against Mandy and my relationship? What are we doing to interfere with your lives? Really what it comes down to, this is between Mandy, Me, our parents, and God. Because it seems as if all of you are a big fork in the road dividing one road into two, trying to separate it. Where in the Bible says that two 17 year olds should not date? Because as far as I know there isn’t such a reference to that, but maybe I am mistaken.
I’m not saying that guys open so people feel sorry for them, I’m saying that guys allowing themselves to be shoulders for girls to cry on opens doors for emotional attachment, which isn’t good for either girl or guy. And I’m glad you love your parents, my point was simply that one learns to love in the home and when they leave the home they apply that learned love to others…that doesn’t mean they don’t love others with charity or affection. I’m not opposing your and Mandy’s relationship, but you seem to think we are. Though, I do admit, I am not totally supporting it either. I don’t want either one of you to get hurt. And the bible does not say two 17 year olds shouldn’t date, but Paul does say it is better to marry than to burn with passion, but this is due to a lack of self control. In 1 Cor 7, I think it would be good if everyone gave it a glance…
Andrew, no one is attacking you, in fact we are discussing dating in the abstract, not the particular situation of you and Mandy. I for one am not involved in this debate to bash you, I am doing it to solidify and test my own ideas on the subject. Yes, I do not think your relationship is the wisest thing; No, I do not think you are necessarily sinning; No, I don't hate you or hold some sort of petty grudge: I simply disagree. We can be friends, we can love each other (you know what I mean) and still disagree.
As a side note, neither of us are obligated to find a verse in the bible that says "thou shalt not date but if you do...." or visa versa. We are arguing from principle.
Charris and Joe, I'm not sure if I understand the parent objection. What if one's parent assents?
By the way, where is Joe? Stop hiding under the bed. :D
I know, it was just a question i've been having so i thought i'd ask it.
parents assenting? I was kinda talking about parents teaching children how to love sacrifically and how teenagers learn how to love in a home setting before they should go out and try to love another person of an opposite sex...they were just thoughts i was trying to solidify....
I asked because there was mention of children being under the direction of parents.
I was indeed hiding under the bed. I'm petrified of this post... this monster that I have created....
Anyways, I think that I tend to agree with Andrew on a few points: namely, the point that we have all of eternity to love God and only 50+ years to love, in my case, my girl (when I get one). But, I don't think that these two are exclusive, and from reading through these comments, it seemed as if people were treating these two loves as being such: either you love God or you love your spouse. Yes, we have a finite number of years to love our spouses. Yes, we have an infinite number of years to love God. Yes, God ought to be a higher priority than man, but to take these facts and arrange them into an argument which says that we ought not to love someone of the opposite sex is foolish. I don't think that anyone MEANT to say anything like this, but it's what it sounded like (please, "don't kill the messenger").
I still hold to the general principle that teenagers are not ready to take on the commitment of marriage. No doubt, there are a handful of teenagers who are, but that handful cannot change the simple fact that most are not as wise as they.
I think that the first step to becoming one of those few, is realizing what it means to have a relationship like marriage. It sounds like Andrew has recognized that. I would still argue that he ought not to date, but that's no new news. That's my own personal opinion.
Getting to the level where that elite group is is tricky, but, when you think about it, we all have to do it. Otherwise we end up divorced.
Post a Comment