As I sit here, schnarfeling my Top Ramen and praying that I would return to health in time for work and school, I got to thinking about this past weekend and all that it stood for. For those who are not aware, this past weekend was spent at JoshuaFest, a rapidly growing Christian rock concert located in nearby Quincy California. The weekend was over all very very fun, but one can't help but wonder if it all was ok. I mean, you have your rather emotional security guard leading everyone in prayer asking the Holy Spirit to come upon us, and then continue to rock out. For me its kind of a difficult situation. I like the really hardcore screamy stuff sometimes, if they play well, and its fun to listen to at concerts where you can go crazy. One of the bands there named Dizmas is a really fun band to watch and a neat bunch of guys to hang out with, but they mix the hard rock sound with the worship words on some tracks, and I'm not totally sure that that is ok.
I guess it all depends on what the concert aims at. If the concert is supposed to be a place where you worship God, then bands like Dizmas probably shouldn't apply. But if the concert is just about music, a clean setting, and a good time then Dizmas would be fine. I'm just a little bit confused. Is it morally right to praise God through hardcore rock?
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It seems like you're looking at a couple kinds of worship. In one sense, we worship God in EVERYthing we do: washing the dishes, doing homework, hanging out with friends, even going to concerts. In all these things we can worship him poorly (grumbling, selfishness, etc), or we can worship him well(thanks, joy, humility).
Church worship is different. There are some pretty strong specifics in the bible about how to "do" it rightly. But, there is also a lot of "wiggle room". God commands "use instruments" but he doesn't say "use an organ, but not a guitar". God commands "meet together" but he doesn't say "your building must have a steeple 26' tall with a cross on top".
These are deep waters. It's good to see you exploring them! It's good to see you bloggin gagain too.
I think the 2 kinds of worship helps a bit. I don't think that one should worship God in church with that kind of music, but to worship God through our actions at a concert with that music... I think that is ok. And I suppose when you go to the concert, thats just what you have to think about. Why are you there? I guess my bottom line is, I don't think that going to a Christian concert can cover not going to church.
Top Rmen is good. Ive sznarfled(?) a few bowls myself recently . But anyway, I dont think that screaming about God is worship. I mean the band could be Christian, but wheres the line between worship and just trying to be cool? And if they were "worshipping" isnt there a problem with their style? I mean, worship is all about reverence. Screaming is not. Worship is where you dont care what man thinks, because you are telling GOD how much you love him, not how cool you are!
by the way, I'm glad you are blogging agian!
Some posts in this blog have said it's not our place to judge. Well, I'm going to judge, because quite frankly, I believe I have a responsibility and calling to question that which I know not to be true in accordance with the Bible. (I'm not judging Zach or anyone else that went to Joshua Fest, I'm judging Rock Music as a medium in which we worship God.)
Someone quite intelligent, I don''t remember his name right of the top of my head, said, "The Medium is the Message." Would you preach on Sunday morning from the box of a television? Would you bring a television into the Church, have your tapped sermon on video, and play it so that the whole congregation could watch? No. Why? Because when one goes to Church, one goes to worship God with all one's soul, mind, and body. Watching TV requires very little intelect and participation. Also, when one goes to Church, one also goes to commune with fellow Christians. Watching Television doesn't do this.
Before one hears the sermon, however, one's mind is usually prepared with the worship music at the beginning. Does listening to Evenescence during Sunday worship lead you to worship God? No. Reason being because it was not made to do so. But this is secular music you might say. True. What about Hard Rock Techno? If the heart is in the right place, Techno is ok, right? Sure, there's no words, but we can all think our own words into the music as it plays. That way no one will be able to judge who's words are more right and scripturally correct than others. No...Techno wouldn't work. What about Kutless, could we play Kutless in Sunday morning worship. They do have a worship CD that I hear is pretty good. But why is it good? Is it good because many people like it, or because something about it represents the Truth, the Beauty, and Goodness of God?
The Bible says that we (christians) are to present our bodies as living sacrifices: Holy, Acceptable unto God, which is our reasonable service, or worship (Rom. 12). In the Old Testament God's sacrifices were the best in the land. The fatten calf, the pure sheep. He had specifications for his sacrifices. He had certain ways his worship was done. Why should that change? He hasn't. If we have a never changing God, would he change the root of His worship? No, and he hasn't. He still requires the best that we have to offer. Is rock music the best that we can offer him? He offered us his Son-Himself. The best that we can offer him back, in this modern age, is Rock Music?
A student once asked, "Is it morally right to praise God through hardcore rock?" God's word is sacred-not common. Rock music is common. Is it right to take something that is sacred and bring it down to a common-poplar-level? Sex, for example, is sacred. It is set apart for a male and female who are united in marriage. Is it morally right to take sex and place it at a common level? Would it be right if people, not married, male and male, female and female, male and female, to just start having sex? No. The Bible calls this fornication. But who are we to judge them. What if their hearts really were seeking the Truth, seeking God? What if these people wanted a right relationship with the opposite sex, but didn't know how? You would instruct them. You would guide them to the Truth, show them that God explicitly says that what they are doing is wrong. Sex brought down to a common level is profane. (Profane meaning to take something that is set apart-holy, and bring it down to the level of everyday life.) To take the Psalms, the Holy Scriptures, and place them in a context as common, and if I may say, base as hardcore music, is profanity against God. Which leads me back to my former point: If God's name and word are Sacred, then why are we giving them back to God, and to his people, in a medium that is not the best we have to offer?
Hi all! I personally agree with fruitcake. Hard Rock is not the way to go. Worship is alll about reverence, and God has it set in the Bible that you do not take something holy and make it common(profane it). Sure, I like ssome Rock, but calling it worship really is over the edge. Bands and concerts are pretty much entertainment based. It is good to talk about God between songs and hope that non believers will "come to the light" through it. But there are better ways than screaming. How we live our life styles should be the thing that brings others to want to be Christians, not because we make cool music. We worship Christ in all we do, or at least we should. We cant judge peolpes hearts and thank goodness for that! I am kind worn out now, and I am probably not making much sense, but I believe it isnt right to scream- worship. It just isnt reverent. End of story (not really. Keep on commenting. This is getting interesting.)
"monday,tuesday,and wednesdaybrat" signing off.
This is a very interesting subject, and a very volatile subject if I may say so, though perhaps we've got a little off subject The REAL subject Drew is trying to address is the question of whether hard rock can be a form of worship. First, we have to define worship, as ELR pointed out. The first definition would be worship in a church service. The second definition would be worship as a part of everything we do.
From an purely artistic point of view,'worship' according to the second defintion as any art form brings glory to God through beauty (meaning through the quality of form and content). There is some hard rock which is both in form and lyrics 'beautiful' and we can worship God, in the sense of the second definition, through it. This second definition is, I think the main purpose of such bands as Dizmas.
As to the first definition of worship, I'm not fully convinced of any particular stand point. Though I think that hard rock is innapropriate for church services, my personal opinion really doesn't matter, God's does: Hard rock is or is not appropriate for church, it can't be both at the same time. Someone asked whether it is reverent or not, so I looked up the definition of reverent in the dictionary and lo and behold... it was no help. "Marked by, feeling, or expressing reverence." Wow, that's insightful *sarcasm*. Talk about defining a word by using it.... So I looked up respect - and that's a little more helpful.
Respect - "1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit.
3. To relate or refer to; concern"
So that says that if our worship is to be reverent - to show respect - towards God we have to obey his wishes in how he wants to be worshiped. Deferential means "Submission or courteous yielding to the opinion, wishes, or judgment of another."
Unfortunatly, I'm unable to find the 11th commandment which reads: Thou shalt not play hard rock in your worship services. The Bible doesn't really specify, as far as I can see and I'm probably wrong, that certain types of music styles are not to be used. As far as I can see it simply gives guidlines to content. The Bible doesn't obviously say, "there is only one style you should use in church." But we can't use this as an excuse to close the argument. Neither can we say, "everyone has their own opinions so let's let them live." God's not a God of relativism but rather Truth. The opinions of other Christians should count for a good deal, while we should do things for God rather then for man, God has given us the Church whether we like it or not and all of us are bound by the same Truth.
In closing, I'd just like to say IT'S OKAY TO DISAGREE. Seriously guys. That's not saying we can all disagree and be RIGHT, that simply means we don't need to take a personal offence when people disagree with us. We need to listen to the veiws of other people - especially Christians - and then, through the Bible decide what is right.
I guess I haven't really come to a conclusion at all. Other then I really am not sure how I stand on the 1st definition, though I hope I have some valid points on the 2nd definition. I hope this comment counts as kudos.
-The Class Loudmouth
As moderator of this blog, I too would like to explain a bit. Honestly, I have nothing against Dizmas. I have met them a few times and they are all seem to be really neat guys. I like their sound too. The only reason I even mentioned Dizmas was as an example, I wasn't picking on anyone in particular. I could have mentioned Kids in the Way or Falling Up or one of the other bands at Joshuafest, but Dizmas came to mind first.
I liked ELRs comment about the two types of worship. I myself am positive that it should not take place in worship for several reasons already mentioned here. For one, the idea of reverence was a good one. Also, I go to an Anglican parish. I beleive in the importance of the traditional. And if hymns are part of the tradition, then I believe that that is what we should be singing at church. I still agree with my previous comment: going to a christian music concert doesn't cover not going to church. I think that rock music can be preformed to the glory of God just like everything else, but it can never be the same as sacred music of the Church.
I think every one has arrived a a similar conclusion that it we cant know or judge anothers heart(which really isnt the question) and that screaming isnt worship. I really dont have any other ideas at the moment that would be fresh and interesting to mull over, but when i do, this will be the first place i say it to(?).
In answering to Mr. Zeagen's questions: 1) If a band calls themselves "christian" I think it is their duty to actually play Christian, and encourage people to seek Christ. They shouldnt call themselves christian to be mom and dad approved. Also, in what way are they using the term "Christian"? Is the band composed of christians, or is the content of the music christian? Or are they just trying to attract more people to their bands? And what if they are just trying to clear themselves of guilt using the reasoning "If I call myself Christian, then I am fufilling my obligation (I am not quite sure if that is the word I am searching for....) towards God? But for certain I dont think that sreaming works as worship.
2) If I ware too go to a Christian festival, I personnally wold expect all Christian music (I dont know about "worship"). But again, how are we using the term "Christian"?
3. Can music be used by God that is not what you call worship music? If yes, How 3) I dont really know if non worship itsef can be used by God to bring sinners to repentance, but I do know that the way the band members lead their lives and set examples to others has a major effect on nonchristians. If they are being Godly and loving torwards the sinners, they will think "wow, I can really see a difference btween us. I like these Christians? What do they have that makes them this way?" But if the band members are just acting cool and like everyone else and dont uphold what they say they belive, the nons will think"Their no different, why should I think their special or want to be like them?" Just some thoughts.
4. Is there a difference in how a Christian band should perform whether it be in a church or a secular club ? 4) If they are calling themselves Christians and really are, they should act just as HOly and Upright at a secular club as at a church function (which they probably wouldt be screaming at.)
5) For me being drawn to a band is mainly through peer pressure or someone elses opinions. If they say"hey, Bekah this is a great band, I really like it, you should listen to it. I have a cd you can borrow. I think youd like it" then of course I wont object. I am easily persuaded, which may or may not be a bad thing. But i belive that alot of the reasons for being drawn to something is someone elses opinions (ususally someone you look up to and admire). Believe me. I know. I have told certain people how much I like a band, and they go all out because they think Bekah Knows Best. I dont . Really. I regret my opinions sometimes. Other times I do the same
at someone elses opinions. Even if I dont like it, I think "wellll... so and so likes it, and they know about these things, so I should probably go with the flow." It is kinda the way people get hooked on smoking or drugs. At first it is just wanting to be cool and like every one else, and next thing you know, you cant stop. (Not that I would know or anything)
http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/rockmusic.html
Above is an interesting webpage I found on this subject. I don't know what the rest of the site says, but I think this argument is very good. I found it interesting and it challenged me in the way I look at rock in worship services.
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